This episode of The Flight Pod, hosted by Michael Arron, features an interview with John Hutchinson, a distinguished pilot and one of the select few who flew the Concorde. Hutchinson recounts his journey from being inspired by aviation in India, joining the Royal Air Force, to eventually becoming a Concorde pilot with British Airways. He shares detailed experiences including the rigorous training involved, the particular demands of supersonic flight, and memorable moments such as an engine surge incident and flying the Queen. Hutchinson also discusses the future of supersonic travel, reflecting on the Concorde's legacy and the ongoing fascination with the aircraft. The episode highlights his career, personal anecdotes, and his wife's supportive role, concluding with advice for aspiring pilots.
In this episode of The Flight Pod, host Michael Arron interviews John Hutchinson, one of the few elite pilots who had the opportunity to fly the iconic Concorde. Hutchinson shares his incredible journey from his childhood fascination with aviation in India to his illustrious career as a Concorde captain. He discusses the rigorous training he underwent and recounts memorable flights, including a dramatic engine surge incident. Hutchinson also reflects on the supersonic jet's legacy, the evolution of aviation technology, and his hopes for the future of air travel. The episode concludes with insights into Hutchinson's personal life, including the crucial support from his wife and his encounters with famous passengers.
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The Wind Beneath My Wings - John Hutchinson Concorde Pilot by Susan Ottaway - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wind-Beneath-My-Wings/dp/1839014326#
Episode Host: Michael Arron
Producer and Editor Stewart Anthony
Original Music: Mood Mode
00:00 Introduction to John Hutchinson
00:29 Early Life and Inspiration
01:41 Career Beginnings and Choices
03:04 Becoming a Concorde Pilot
04:59 Challenges and Training
16:33 Memorable Experiences
23:20 Concorde's Legacy and Future of Aviation
37:00 Personal Reflections and Advice
44:52 Closing Remarks
[00:00:03] Mike: Welcome to The Flight Pod, exploring the lives and journeys of the most influential people in aviation and travel. I'm your host, Michael Arron, and in this episode I spoke to John Hutchinson, one of only a few elite pilots who got the opportunity to fly Concorde. John has had a fascinating life. He shared the story about when aviation first captured his imagination that led him to captain one of the most spectacular aircraft of our time.
[00:00:29] John: I never saw an airplane or never consciously been aware of seeing an airplane while we lived in India. We lived in various places. We lived in Delhi, Agra, Simla, Nainital. Um, I know that from the age of about seven, I used to collect the boy's wonder book of the Royal Air Force.
[00:00:52] John: Um, books on aircraft identification of the Second World War. all that sort of stuff. And I just, [00:01:00] there's something about the idea of flight that absolutely captured my imagination. And I just knew I wanted to be a pilot when we came back from India in the winter of 1947, 1948, after the partitioning of India.
[00:01:19] John: Um, we, my mother took me on a holiday to the Isle of Wight and bought me a joy ride in a tiger moth. And all that did was confirm what I already knew. And I literally joined the Royal Air Force on my 18th birthday. And, uh, the rest, as they say, is history. I, uh, spent eight years in the Air Force. Three years with McAlpine's, the building engineers, which was phenomenal flying, but not something I'd wanted to do for the rest of my days.
[00:01:54] John: And then when the airlines started recruiting again in 1966, because they had not been [00:02:00] recruiting for a few years, Up to that point, um, when they started again, I applied to Qantas, BOAC and BEA, got accepted by all three of them, and actually very nearly chose Qantas because I, the idea of living in Australia and bringing our children up in Australia was something that had a huge appeal for me.
[00:02:25] John: But sadly for me, my mother was dying at the time of cancer. And I just felt it was completely inappropriate to, um, bog off down to Australia and, uh, with the grandchildren and leaving my mother to die. So I ruled Qantas out and I decided BEA should be ruled out because I really wanted to fly around the world, not just around short haul around Europe.
[00:02:53] John: Uh, so BOAC it was, and of course that decision is what ultimately led to to [00:03:00] the opportunity of flying Concordee. So it's funny how fate works.
[00:03:04] Mike: You reached the pinnacle becoming one of a elite group of Concordee pilots. Um, can you tell us how that all played out?
[00:03:11] John: Well, um, I know we were within the airline, we were regarded as an elite.
[00:03:19] John: Um, and I suppose in a sense we were, I mean, what is really interesting to say that You didn't get more money flying Concordee, you got less money, because the pay structures in British Airways certainly at that time were that you had your subs pay for whatever your rank was, and then superimposed on top of that, there were extra flight time payments, which were pensionable, pensionable pay, so it was quite significant.
[00:03:50] John: Um, but that only came into effect, I can't remember what the trigger point was, let's say it was a flight of eight hours or something like that. Eight [00:04:00] hours plus, and then you triggered extra flight time payments. And, um, that, as I say, was part of your pensionable pay. Um, well, of course, Concordee didn't qualify for extra flight time payments.
[00:04:13] John: A flight of three and a bit hours to New York didn't exactly qualify at all. So the upshot of all that was, and it was a wonderful sort of side effect of that, was that everybody who came onto that aeroplane were people. Who, to whom the salary wasn't the be all and end all. They were people to whom the fantastic magic of flying that absolutely incredible airplane was absolutely first and foremost in their minds.
[00:04:46] John: So, everybody who came onto that airplane was a piloting enthusiast. Um, and that really singled the Concordee Fleet out as being something very special indeed. [00:05:00] The course itself, I mean, my goodness, I've had some tough courses. I suppose one of the toughest ones was probably the Central Flying School course, which I did at Little Rissington to become a flying instructor.
[00:05:15] John: Very demanding course. but a very rewarding course. Um, I think I'd rate the course to get onto the Concorde probably as the toughest one of the lot actually. It was a six month course and my goodness you, you really had to be very determined that that's what you wanted to do. Um, it consisted of eight weeks of ground school and every week you'd have a progress exam and you were expected to get 90 percent or more in it.
[00:05:47] John: And if you didn't, there'd be a big question mark on your name and maybe you put under a review for the chop from the course. At the end of that grand school, you did the air registration board exam, [00:06:00] which was I can't remember 480 questions about all the various systems, hydraulics, electrics, avionics, the whole shooting match.
[00:06:10] John: And again, you were expected to get at least 90 percent in each sort of section. And assuming you've passed all that, you then spent, in my case, about 85 hours in the flight simulator over a period of, you know, several weeks, uh, learning not just to fly a subsonic airplane, but most importantly and crucially, learning to fly a supersonic airplane with some of the differences involved, um, and challenges involved with supersonic flight.
[00:06:45] John: And then at the end of that simulator session. You then went in my case to Bryce Norton and did I think five flights doing circuits and bumps. And that was [00:07:00] the first time I actually got my hands on the airplane. That was quite exciting because you can imagine there was no baggage on board. There was no, um, passengers on board.
[00:07:09] John: There was no catering on board. Um, you didn't carry a huge fuel load because you're only going on a training flight. You wanted the airplane to be below landing weight so that you could do touch and goes and my God, you were flying a pocket rocket. I think the instructors had great funds and the air traffic controllers saying you're cleared for takeoff level at 3, 000 feet.
[00:07:34] John: I think very few people ever managed to level at 3, 000 feet. They're still busy mentally trying to catch up with themselves. So it was quite good fun. And then, after all that was over, he then spent three months going down the route. In my case, in 19, oh, 1977, beginning of 78, um, the route structure was a bit limited.
[00:07:59] John: It [00:08:00] was basically, well, it was basically Bahrain in my case. So, it was endless trips to Bahrain with a training captain. The training captains, by the way, were people who'd been seconded from British Airways to British Aerospace before Concordee ever entered service. There was a nucleus group of training captains and a couple of, uh, nucleus group first officers, Jock Lowe and Chris Oliver were the two first officers, and a nucleus group of flight engineers, and they'd all done their training with British Aerospace.
[00:08:35] John: So they were the They were the people who trained the subsequent courses, the subsequent early courses. Um, and at the end of the three months, finally you were signed off as a Concordee captain. Um, and off you went. So, I hope that sort of illustrates the sort of complexity of the course. I don't know what a conversion course onto a [00:09:00] 777 would take, but I don't think it's anything like six months.
[00:09:04] John: Nowhere near. And. British Airways, of course, were very conscious of the fact that if there was ever a major incident with Concordee, A, it would make headline news, and B, could spell the end of the whole project. And, um, they were utterly determined that they were not going to have any passengers.
[00:09:29] John: passenger fatalities on Concordee or any Concordee accidents. So they really did go to town over the, over the seriousness of the training.
[00:09:39] Mike: How many years had Concordee been in service by the time you joined the fleet?
[00:09:45] John: Well, the first flight of Concordee was 21st of January, 1976. Um, I joined in the spring of 1977 to do the course.
[00:09:59] John: [00:10:00] Um, Basically, I sort of qualified at the end of 1977,
[00:10:07] John: probably early 1978, January 78, I think. Um, and of course, actually thinking about it now, not that we didn't just have Bahrain, we also had Washington. Washington's Dulles Airport for our training flying. under supervision.
[00:10:26] Mike: So were they flying into New York, um, at this point? No, they still hadn't been given no.
[00:10:30] Mike: No,
[00:10:31] John: no. This was, we operated on a trial basis to Washington and basically what happened at the end of the sort of trial, there was a big wash up and debate about what issues Concorde had, uh, posed or problems that had posed. There hadn't been any complaints about noise. The only problem. The airport had had was crowds of coaches, coachloads of people coming along to watch [00:11:00]Concordee coming into land or to watch Concordee taking off on its departure for, for London.
[00:11:06] John: So, um, so that fact really led to the really significant breakthrough, which was New York, of course. And the first flight into New York, if I remember correctly, was something like November 1970.
[00:11:25] John: 78, I think it was. Yes, 1978. Um, and of course we ended up having two services a day to New York, the Speedbird 1 that left at 1030 and the Speedbird 3 that left at seven o'clock in the evening.
[00:11:44] Mike: We've gone, we've gone backwards. We've, we've regressed. Well,
[00:11:50] John: yes, I mean, the other day I flew to join a ship in St.
[00:11:54] John: Lucie and I flew to Barbados first and then and I on the ground and on to [00:12:00]St. Lucie, the flight down to Barbados took eight hours and 50 minutes. I used to be able to fly to Barbados and Concorde in three hours and 40 minutes.
[00:12:10] Mike: Know, how did the supersonic capabilities of the aircraft affect the way people you approach flying compared to how you'd approach flying other airplanes?
[00:12:20] John: Well, to be honest, I mean, provided you don't sort of operate preconceived views and provided you respond to whatever the airplane actually does, there's no real problems about supersonic flight versus subsonic flight.
[00:12:36] John: I know the Civil Aviation Authority were very concerned because You know, if you lose an engine on a subsonic airplane, let's say you lose an engine, the number one engine on the left hand side, the airplane will roll over to the left because there's more power on the right hand side, and, and you then correct for that.
[00:12:58] John: Well, when you're [00:13:00] flying supersonic, if you have an engine failure that, say, the number one engine, it doesn't roll to the left, it rolls to the right, because That intake, that failed number one engine, that air has to be dumped somewhere, and it's squirted out down through the bottom through a, um, um, an exit hole, uh, under the bottom of the intake.
[00:13:27] John: And it's a sort of jet reaction to, to the air being forced out, jetting downwards. And they. aircraft banking over in the opposite sense to what it would do when you were subsonic. Um, and they were very concerned that this completely contrary behavior would cause problems, but it doesn't because, you know, if the airplane starts rolling to the right, you just make sure you keep the wings level, you know, it's, um, so as far as I'm concerned, there were no [00:14:00] real problems with, um, supersonic flight other than the fact that you had to keep yourself mentally.
[00:14:09] John: Well ahead of the airplane, because if something went wrong, like, for instance, an engine failure at supersonic speeds, you were not going to be able to sit up there at 58, 000 feet, cruising happily along on three engines supersonic, you needed all four engines. So if you had an engine failure, and bear in mind in the years that I was flying, the communications were all done through HF radio.
[00:14:36] John: So it wasn't an instantaneous chatting to people, you had to. Wait till there was an opportunity to speak and then it would take time. So you couldn't organize an air traffic control clearance very expeditiously. Meanwhile, you're descending regardless because there's no, um, there's no way you can stay up there whether you like it or not.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] John: So here you are, three of you on the flight deck. You're decelerating and descending and managing the flight. You're planning your descent so that you don't come in conflict with the subsonic track structure. So you'd plan the descent to sort of come in somewhere between the subsonic track structures, because we have all this information with us for every flight.
[00:15:26] John: And the flight engineer would be pumping fuel forward from the tank 11 at the tail because you're now decelerating and descending, so you need to keep the center of gravity in the right place. So there's a heck of a workload going on. You're trying to get air traffic control clearances, you're trying to manage the safety of the airplane.
[00:15:47] John: Um, it's you, you've got quite an extreme workload and the three of you on the flight deck really had to know what you were doing to keep under, under, keep the situation under [00:16:00]control. So when people ask me what Concordee was like to fly, my answer is that it was incredibly easy to fly. It had the most responsive, wonderful flying controls.
[00:16:11] John: If you trimmed it up properly, you could just fly it with your thumb and your forefinger. Um, absolutely delightful airplane to fly with massive reserves of power, of course. Um, but she was a very demanding mistress to manage. Uh, if things went wrong, she did not take prisoners.
[00:16:33] Mike: Can you share a particularly challenging moment from your time flying Concordee?
[00:16:38] John: Well, I mean, the most dramatic one in the time that I was on it, um, was Which was 15 years from 1977 till 1992. And I was kicked into retirement, kicking and screaming and protecting. Um, the most dramatic one was a flight from Washington to [00:17:00] London. And I was just about to eat a very nice piece of steak, and suddenly the airplane started shaking really violently and throwing me around on flight deck.
[00:17:12] John: I mean, truly violent. And for a microsecond, I thought, gosh, this is turbulence like I've never known it. And you didn't actually get turbulence at supersonic cruise heights because you were above all the Earth's weather. There were no strong winds up there. Maximum winds you'd get was sort of 30 knots, maybe.
[00:17:31] John: You're above the thunderstorms, you're in this wonderful, calm, tranquil environment. So I then pretty much immediately realized that this was actually, of course, not turbulence, it was an engine surge. And by engine surge, what I mean is the breakdown of the airflow through one of the engines. And there's a huge Long checklist that you have to go through if you have an engine surge.
[00:17:59] John: [00:18:00] And basically it's a troubleshooting checklist. So you go down this checklist trying to find out what it was that caused the engine surge. The initial actions, which were memory actions, the first thing you did to stop all the thumping and the banging, was to close all four throttles. Well, that's fine. It does stop all the thumping and the banging.
[00:18:24] John: But it's also what's driving you along at twice the speed of sound. So the deceleration is quite dramatic. And the passengers and the cabin crew and the trolleys all come and join you on the flight deck to come and give you a helping hand. I'm being slightly facetious, but it was quite, quite dramatic deceleration.
[00:18:45] John: And I had a very switched on flight engineer, Chuck, called Bill Brown, subsequently went on to become a pilot. training captain in British Airways in his illustrious career. [00:19:00] But Bill Brown was a very switched on character and he'd spotted that the number three variable geometry intake ramp for that number three engine had driven itself into the wrong place.
[00:19:12] John: And that that was what he felt was the cause of the, of the engine surge. So he said, look, instead of going through this checkers, can I just, before we do that, try And hard select the other computer that controls that intake and see if that works. So I said, if that's what you think it was, Bill, go for it.
[00:19:33] John: So he hard selected the other computer that control that intake. We very, very gingerly opened up the number three throttle and it was all fine. Opened up the symmetrical part of the number two and it was all fine. Then the outboards and we resumed Mac two. And carried on towards London. And I eventually got my voice back from a sort of high pitched treble and made [00:20:00] suitably reassuring announcements to the passengers.
[00:20:03] John: And then I thought, well, I'd better go back and see them because it really was quite a horrifying experience, really. And I went back into the cabin, which we never did because it disrupted the cabin service. But I thought, on this occasion, I must. And I spoke to all the passengers. And I remember going up to one elderly British lady.
[00:20:27] John: She said, I don't know why you're so worried about us, young man. She said, you should be much more worried about your cabin crew. I said, why? She said, well, they were pretty frightened, you know. I said, oh dear, were they? She said, yes, they were. So I went and tried to cheer them up. Anyway, we duly arrived at London and shut the engines down.
[00:20:46] John: I hopped out of my seat and went back to the front door. To see everybody off. This is a scene that I shall never forget. There was a heck of a lot of booze carried on Concordee. This lot had drunk the air completely dry. They [00:21:00] drunk all the gin, the scotch, the vodka, the white wine, the red wine, the champagne, the cognac, the armagnac, the port or anything else they could get their hands on.
[00:21:09] John: And they all sort of staggered off the airplane saying, thank you very much for a wonderful flight. The power of alcohol.
[00:21:18] Mike: You probably needed one yourself at the end of the day.
[00:21:21] John: I think I needed a visit to the pub, yes I did.
[00:21:24] Mike: Wow, did they, did they actually simulate that for you during your training? Yeah.
[00:21:30] Mike: And, and, and how close to Yeah, pretty,
[00:21:33] John: yeah.
[00:21:33] Mike: It was? It was. Wow. So they knew, they knew kind of what, what would happen basically? Oh
[00:21:39] John: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:21:41] Mike: Wow. Yes,
[00:21:41] John: I mean you have to remember that that Concordee flight test program was, in my opinion, probably the last great flight test.
[00:21:50] John: Program that ever will be because nowadays, airplanes are all flown completely through computers, and you can come up with simulators that faithfully, um, [00:22:00] reproduce everything that the airplane does. Um, Concordee was flight tested to within any, I mean, when you think I think the Trumpshaw,
[00:22:14] John: A note, a car got airborne on that first flight was, I think, in March 1969, I could, somewhere around there, and it was, the flight test program went on for seven years before it entered service, so it's a hugely long flight test program, and they've, they had to discover all these things for themselves in the air, they didn't know at all.
[00:22:39] John: What was going to happen when you had an engine surge of Mac two, so that had to be simulated in the air and on one occasion, I think, um, a bit of the intake ramp actually blew out of the front of the airplane and did did a little bit of damage to the aircraft. So it was a pretty [00:23:00] hairy flight test program.
[00:23:02] John: They were really learning about the airplane as they went along. They couldn't predict, in other words, what was going to happen. until they'd actually tested it themselves and seen what, what was going to happen. So, so physically,
[00:23:17] Mike: physically put through its paces basically. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:20] Mike: . Um, Concordee was renowned for its luxury and speed.
[00:23:24] Mike: How did that shape your perception of air travel? , how did the passengers react to the experience of flying on such a prestigious aircraft?
[00:23:33] John: Well, the passengers sort of came into two categories, I suppose. There were the regular users of it, and many of them, I think, simply regarded it as just a means to an end.
[00:23:45] John: It cut down the travel time across the Atlantic, and a lot of our regulars were people from Goldman Sachs, uh, from Merrill Lynch, uh, Cantor Fitzgerald, um, all these, uh, [00:24:00]investment houses in the, in New York. They used to just sort of commute across the Atlantic without even thinking about it. Um, so I'm not sure that they were blase about it, but, you know, they just accepted it.
[00:24:14] John: It was Concordee. That's what it did. And, you know, I use it because it saves me three hours of, four hours of time. And I, I can, I've got, I've, I'm sort of buying myself more productive use of my time. Um, and then the other people who travel on it were people who just wanted to fly on it for the magic of flying on it.
[00:24:36] John: And there were quite a number of those as well.
[00:24:39] Mike: , John, in your book, um, The Wind Beneath My Wings, you mentioned your wife, Susan, as a key figure in your life. Um, how did her support influence your career and experiences as a Concordee pilot?
[00:24:51] John: Well, she, she's always been, um, massively supportive of, of me and my career and has always, um, [00:25:00] accepted that, you know, that, that flying is a major part of my life.
[00:25:06] John: I mean, the biggest demands were made long before I ever went on to Concordee than I used to be on. 707s and 747s, and I'd be on the Far East Front of Sydney, um, and be away from home for two, sometimes up to nearly three weeks. Um, so, Concordee was a very different operation indeed, so I just went to New York one day and back the next, so it was, that was, that was transformational, and I think from Sue's point of view, she really appreciated the fact that I'd gone to Concordee and wasn't going away on these long, long haul trips, um, in a subsonic.
[00:25:46] John: So
[00:25:48] Mike: during your career, Aviation technology and safety protocols have evolved quite rapidly. How did you adapt to these changes and did you ever have to overcome significant [00:26:00]challenges with new technology?
[00:26:02] John: No, I don't think so. Uh, I can't, I think, you know, you just, if that's what you've got to do, you learn what the new technology is.
[00:26:12] John: Um, I'd be completely lost. I think, you know, I mean, I, so If the flight crew on a flight where I'm going passenger somewhere, if they all went sick, would I be able to fly the airplane? Yes, I would be able to fly the airplane, without doubt. But I'd need a lot of help from controllers to sort of guide me.
[00:26:38] John: And I wouldn't necessarily understand the systems. Um, so. You know, when you're actually currently flying you, you do a course to go on to the airplane and whatever new systems that new airplane has, you learn how to use them. So it's not, it's not a problem. What [00:27:00] fascinates me and in retrospect is, you know, I started my flying career in the Royal Air Force in 1955.
[00:27:09] John: And if anybody had said to me in October 1955, when I went up for my first training flight in the Harvard. In Canada, but the Canadian Air Force Station of Moose draw in Saskatchewan. If anybody said to me. Hutchinson in 22 years time, you're going to be flying Concordee across the Atlantic supersonic to Washington with passengers on board.
[00:27:33] John: I just said, you're out of your brain. Um, and that's the reality of what my flying career encompass. So in a sense, I arrived at a point in time where I've seen the propeller age, the jet age, and the supersonic age all in my one, one career. Which it is quite remarkable really.
[00:27:55] Mike: Amazing. What was the most rewarding aspect of flying the Concordee both [00:28:00] personally and professionally?
[00:28:02] John: I suppose the most rewarding aspect of it was it was beautiful to fly. It was demanding to fly. You endlessly respected it, knew basically that you had to keep in firm control of her. She, she made, she made demands on you and you had to rise to the occasion. And meet those demands. And that was in itself very rewarding.
[00:28:27] John: Um, it was very rewarding to carry the sort of passengers I carried. And all the years that I flew, of course, we had open flight deck doors. And, um, people could come up and visit us. So I've, oh gosh, I've met Muhammad Ali, who was magnificent in 1978. Uh, he came onto the flight deck and spent a long time chatting to us.
[00:28:53] John: And watched the landing into London. And he was an absolute delight, totally down to earth, [00:29:00] uh, nothing bombastic about him, uh, very funny, very entertaining guy, uh, Lauren Bacall, Humphrey Bogart's widow, who was probably one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen in my life. I don't know what age she was then, but she must have been in her seventies, and my God, she still looked fantastic.
[00:29:22] John: And then I used to carry the great classical musicians. Yitzhak Perlman, Isaac Stern, um, Ashkenazi, people like that. You know, that, that is a massive privilege. And I suppose the ultimate privilege for me was being one of the captains on the Royal flight, uh, to Washington when we took the Queen to Washington in 1991, flew into Andrews Air Force Base and then took her down to Miami where she boarded the Royal Yacht Britannia.
[00:29:55] John: And went on the circumnavigation of the Florida panhandle. We then picked [00:30:00] her up in Tampa and took her to Dallas and then Houston. And then she went off to stay with some racehorse breeding friend of hers in the States. And we flew the Concordee back with Prince Philip on board back to London. And, you know, that, that was the greatest privilege of, of all without any doubt.
[00:30:23] John: Yeah.
[00:30:24] Mike: Were you ever, were you ever nervous before, if you knew a certain passenger was on board? Did it never affect you? Were you never really kind of, uh, fazed by it?
[00:30:34] John: No, I've never, basically I've never been nervous flying people. I just sort of take the view that if I arise safely at one end, at the other end of the flight, Then there's a very good chance that everybody else will be safe.
[00:30:47] John: So my own life and limb was the priority in my mind. Uh, so having said that, there was one occasion when I was slightly spooked. [00:31:00] I found I was flying the entire U. S. Ryder Cup golf team. I had on board that airplane. I'm not a golfer, so the names were sort of slightly lost on me. But Arnold Palmer, um, Jack Nicklaus.
[00:31:16] John: Um, Hale Irwin, Tom Watson, Lee Trevino, a whole lot of top golfers. I suddenly thought halfway across the Atlantic, what on earth are they doing putting all their top golfers into this one aeroplane? If this aeroplane blows up in midair, that's the top echelons of the U. S. golf circuit gone in one go. I thought it was bonkers actually.
[00:31:41] John: You might, you thought they might as well put them on two different Concordes.
[00:31:47] Mike: Be the Europeans way of trying to get ahead. I did, I did read a Mike Bannister's book and he is, uh, he tells a story about, [00:32:00] uh, carrying the, the trophy, I think dropping it, dinting it. So, um, so the, the Concordee's no longer in service, but it remains an iconic piece of aviation history. How do you feel about its legacy and what do you think it represents for the future of air travel?
[00:32:18] John: Well, first, I'd say that the fascination with Concordee remains undiminished. If anything, it's more alive now, that passionate interest in the airplane than it ever was when it was around. It's become like a mythological creature that existed once upon a time, like the unicorn or the dragon or something.
[00:32:43] John: And you know, I, I know this from the talks I do, and people just, they can't get enough of it. They're fascinated by the airplane. So the fascination with supersonic flight is very much in people's minds, not just [00:33:00] British minds or American minds of, you know, worldwide. I do talks all over the place. Um, so I have a very sort of clear feedback, if you like, about the passionate interest in the airplane.
[00:33:14] John: And I get that from the questions that people ask me after after my talks. Um, so my role as far as I'm concerned is I'm going to keep the, idea of supersonic flight alive as long as I can and I'll keep the flame of Concordee burning brightly as long as I can, as long as there's breath in my body.
[00:33:36] John: Um, I personally believe we will see supersonic travel back fairly soon. The Americans have got a company, Boom Technology, that's got the Boom Overture. Um, sadly, it's not going to carry as many passengers as Concordee carries. It's not going to fly as fast as Concordee flew, it's only going to [00:34:00] fly, I think, at Mach 1.
[00:34:01] John: 7 or 1. 8, something like that. And most crucially of all, it's not going to be able to fly supersonic over populated land areas. In other words, they have not yet solved the problem of how to mitigate and alleviate the impact of the sonic boom. So they're keeping the dream alive, which is great.
[00:34:24] John: But it's not actually making progress beyond what Concordee did. The key to it all is going to be coming up with an aerodynamic design. And I know NASA are playing around with a vehicle that they hope will solve the problem of the sonic boom, or at least alleviate it to a level that's acceptable for people on the ground.
[00:34:50] John: But until that happens You know, supersonic flight is very limited. It's limited to flying over oceans, basically, or over maybe [00:35:00] deserts. Um, and that does limit the whole sort of sales prospect for an airplane in the future. So that's the key development that has to come, is some solution to the sonic boom issue.
[00:35:15] John: But longer term, I again believe that with new technologies, new fuels, New propulsion systems, new materials, we'll see hypersonic flight, i. e. flight at five times the speed of sound or greater. And I think what we're looking at there will be a sort of suborbital vehicle, more or less, that will fly from London to Sydney in a matter of three hours or something of that sort.
[00:35:47] John: I think that will happen eventually, because there's absolutely no doubt at all that cutting down the flight time Takes all the wear and tear and stress out of the journey. It really does. [00:36:00] And you can just walk off the airplane feeling, provided you haven't had too much to drink, you walk off the airplane feeling fit and fresh and well and ready to do a day's business.
[00:36:11] John: So it is quite transformative in that sense. And it would make the world a much smaller place.
[00:36:17] Mike: Yeah, I just, I find it, I find it fascinating because, we've got Concorde in Manchester and it's been beautifully preserved, it's just fascinating to, to look at it cause it looks like the future.
[00:36:28] Mike: It's just astounding to believe that even after all the years now, 20, I think we're coming up to 23 years of. of non service. And it's kind of crazy to think, you know, you know, where would where would Concorde be now if it had continued? Um, and if it got further investment, , I'm following the likes of boom with a bated breath.
[00:36:48] Mike: I really do hope that they're able to, make that happen. They seem to be the most forward thinking and they've got a lot of support from a lot of airlines
[00:36:57] John: Absolutely support them in that and respect them for [00:37:00] it.
[00:37:00] Mike: Looking back on your entire career, what advice would you give to young pilots or aviation enthusiasts who aspire to follow in your footsteps?
[00:37:10] John: Well, it's, it's, it's a great career. Um, you know, I love flying. It's, it's always have done. Um, and you know, if that's what you want to do, go for it. And maybe if you're just embarking on a flying career, you may well see. hypersonic flight arrive on the scene, there'll be a new challenge.
[00:37:33] Mike: Yeah, maybe that's where I'll end up.
[00:37:38] Mike: They'll have to extend the, um, retirement age again though, so. I mean, unfortunately for yourself, I mean, I think, think now, um, the British Airways would, would they have extended that now to 60, 65? Possibly. It was 55, I think, when you retired. Yeah, it
[00:37:55] John: was. It was 55 when I retired. But it's been [00:38:00] changed to 65 now.
[00:38:02] Mike: And
[00:38:02] John: that was done primarily to correct the problem they had with a sort of bit of a pensions backed black hole. So we'll keep people working another 10 years. Now,
[00:38:15] Mike: now that now they moan that they've got a word long, whereas you look back on it and as you say, you kind of were dragged kicking and screaming.
[00:38:22] Mike: It was
[00:38:23] John: so annoying.
[00:38:25] Mike: I've got a couple of questions for you, just random, very quick questions, uh, just to finish off. Um, first one's probably obvious. Maybe your favorite aircraft, Concordee. I could say your second favorite aircraft. I think if I take
[00:38:40] John: Concordee, if I take Concordee out of it in terms of civil airliners, I'd say the Boeing 747.
[00:38:48] John: Wonderful airplane. I mean, a totally groundbreaking airplane that's been serving the airlines for what I, well over 60 years, 70 years. [00:39:00] 1 71, something like that. Yeah. So it's done sort of 40 to 50 years of service to the airline world. And it was a superb airplane, lovely airplane to fly. Um, unlike the Boeing 7 0 7, which I always thought was a rather clunky sort of airplane.
[00:39:18] John: The 747 was, uh, what it was, it was a gentleman's aerial carriage.
[00:39:24] Mike: It's still my, it's still my personal cause I flew it a lot. Um, I, yeah, I've been on the A380. It's still, the A380 is still pretty awesome to see flying over, uh, you know, coming into land, but the 747, just, just something about it.
[00:39:41] Mike: And you know, looking, but just awesome.
[00:39:42] John: It was a lovely airplane to fly, um, uh, in terms of all the airplanes I've ever flown. I mean, military airplanes. I mean, I have a huge respect for the Shackleton, which served the Air Force [00:40:00] for a very long period of time, something like 40 years, uh, rather unkindly known as 50, 000 rivets flying in loose formation.
[00:40:10] John: Um, but you know, that was a direct descendant of the Lancaster bomber. I only flew the tailwheel version of the Shackleton, the Mark I version. So, you know, it was a tail dragger. And presented all the sort of little tricks of tail draggers can present to you as a pilot. So it was quite a demanding airplane to fly.
[00:40:31] Mike: I haven't flown a tail dragger, personally.
[00:40:34] John: Well, that's, that's proper flying.
[00:40:38] Mike: I have got the opportunity. I'm based at Barton and there are a few. Have a go,
[00:40:43] John: have a go at flying a tail dragger. You'll find it quite interesting. It's very different from just nose wheel steering your way around the place. I'm
[00:40:51] Mike: not, I'm not great when I, when I can see, never mind, on the ground, not being able to see until the tail lifts up, but, uh, yeah, no, it's, [00:41:00] it's one of, one of those things I would like to, like to get the opportunity to do.
[00:41:04] Mike: , , what's your favorite airport?
[00:41:08] John: Oh, well, I mean, I used to love, and this was nothing to do with Concordee, because I, I never actually took, Concordee did go to Hong Kong, um, but, um, I never actually personally flew Concordee to Hong Kong. Um, I used to love flying into Hong Kong.
[00:41:27] Mike: The original, the Kai
[00:41:28] John: Tak. On the Kai Tak, where you're going towards the checkerboard, at right angle to the runway, till your eyes start watering, and then you turn right through 90 degrees, and there's the runway in front of you.
[00:41:40] John: And, and that was, that was, that was a splendid airport to go into.
[00:41:44] Mike: Did you do that, did you fly that with the Jumbo?
[00:41:48] John: Wow. Amazing. Yes. I, I really, really, really like going into Hong Kong. There was something about that airport and the, and the quality of the air traffic controllers is absolutely [00:42:00]top class.
[00:42:01] John: You know, the, the, the best, best of the best. I'm
[00:42:06] Mike: I'm gonna name three airlines and just say the first thing that comes to mind. British Airways.
[00:42:15] John: Well, I'm very proud of British Airways, in spite of all the negative publicity they've had in the last few years. Uh, to me, it remains, um, an airline with the highest possible training standards and, um, and I think their record speaks for itself in that sense.
[00:42:36] Mike: Virgin Atlantic?
[00:42:39] John: They operate basically the same sort of standards as British Airways. Um, and also have a very strong safety culture, as you can see from their record.
[00:42:50] Mike: And finally, Singapore Airlines.
[00:42:53] John: Singapore Airlines, I've never flown on them. I'm told the cabin service is [00:43:00]fantastic, and I'm equally sure that their training standards are probably very high as well.
[00:43:06] Mike: , , that's everything. Thank you very much for your time.
[00:43:09] John: I'll just leave you with one final question. When
[00:43:14] John: were talking about the future and what the future holds, and I mentioned hypersonic flight and all that, or the possibility of it.
[00:43:21] John: I did a flight in 1978 from London to Washington, and about two days before the flight, British Airways called me up and said, You've got an elderly American lady on board flying with you, and she was the very first passenger. to buy a ticket on United Airlines when they started up in the 1920s. She'd been their guest of honor at their 50th birthday celebrations, which had taken place two or three years before this Concordee flight.
[00:43:55] John: And she was passionately interested in the airline world. Would I please look [00:44:00] after her? And I suggested, of course I would. So here we are now on our way to Washington. The meal service is over and I asked the cabin crew to bring this lady up onto the flight deck. And I'm chatting away to her and I said, well, it's a matter of interest.
[00:44:18] John: When did you actually first see an airplane? Oh, she said, I saw one of the Wright brothers landing at Savannah, Georgia in 1908. Wow. Then I said, and when did you first fly? I first flew with Louis Blair. Yeah. My jaw must've fallen to the floor. So here I am talking to this lady who's gone from flying at 23 miles an hour with Louis Blair.
[00:44:45] John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're flying with me in a Concordee at 23 miles a minute, and that's all happened in one lifetime.
[00:44:52] Mike: That was John Hutchinson, a truly exceptional person and pilot that was only a small insight into John's life, and I [00:45:00] highly recommend reading John's book, the Wind Beneath My Wings by Susan Ottaway. This episode was produced and edited by Stewart Anthony. I'm Michael Arron and you've been listening to the Flight Pod.
[00:45:10] Mike: If you've enjoyed this episode of The Flight Pod, please be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. It really helps us reach more listeners. And don't forget to follow us on Instagram at The Flight pod uk where you can send us a DM with your questions, comments or feedback.
[00:45:25]
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